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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pointless View Post
    Really?
    Yeah, without conviction, even embarrassing me, i think these forums make everyone tetchy, especially this subject.


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hummingbird Point View Post

    It would also be very helpful if you can find a flintknapper that can consistently reproduce these forms, per your established specifications. That is, show that "random" is instead "intentional".
    I am sure these flakes and spalls are quite intentional. Flintknapping can be very predictable and repeatable. With good stone a decent tool kit and a reduction strategy very similar shapes and forms can be produced regularly. Something like a blade core is a good example of this.

    The flakes and spalls pictured would make good tools. Either as is or with further work/reduction. Most if not all look like single removals with no additional work being done. Not sure how that can be a figure or some kind of art. Good usable tools sure but art?

  3. #33
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    I haven't read this entire thread, but for those of you who find a lot of such flint shatter or debitage in a spot that you believe each piece is a useful tool,you need to take a trip to the Flint Ridge state park near Newark Ohio. Walking the trails, you'll see erosion in the hilly terrain that exposes layers of such debitage several inches thick to feet thick, all left behind by the Indians. If you read the plaques around the museum, you'll read that when they paved US Route 40, they hauled dump truck loads of the flint debitage to be used for the base of the highway.

    Although this thread may have been started by someone non American (across the pond?), I doubt that the debitage finds are all that different. If you do find immense numbers of this type material, you may be near it's source, or a work shop nearby the source. The pieces may also have been cached for further refinement to avoid repeated trips to distant sources.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dart View Post
    I am sure these flakes and spalls are quite intentional. Flintknapping can be very predictable and repeatable. With good stone a decent tool kit and a reduction strategy very similar shapes and forms can be produced regularly. Something like a blade core is a good example of this.

    The flakes and spalls pictured would make good tools. Either as is or with further work/reduction. Most if not all look like single removals with no additional work being done. Not sure how that can be a figure or some kind of art. Good usable tools sure but art?
    Yes, quality thinking thank you, I can demonstrate the figure as art in some finds, however there is a suggested use, not art, but communication, this is my premise based on numerous findings, directional qualities in the anilmal motifs etc.

  5. #35
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    Dart, This is my basic theory: Stones such as the one pictured below were manipulated in the hand to show various animal head profile shapes, in order to silently convey various observations/instructions/warnings to other members of the group while hunting/surviving. This however dose not cover my whole collection, some are really fancy, would like your opinions on some of those one day.



    Looks pecked, but beyond my scope as a material, none the less figuration alarm bells ring.

  6. #36
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    Looks like a rock to me. Of course I've only been hunting and finding artifacts for 60 years so I'm sure you're the expert.
    Might help if you spent the time and effort to go out and read up on artifacts in your area. I'm sure there's a few archaeologist in your country that would be more then happy to explain the difference between an artifact and a rock.
    Oh, by the way, there's no sign of any pecking, flaking or grinding on that rock.
    MATO OYATE LILA WAKAN

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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehuacana View Post
    Looks like a rock to me. Of course I've only been hunting and finding artifacts for 60 years so I'm sure you're the expert.
    Might help if you spent the time and effort to go out and read up on artifacts in your area. I'm sure there's a few archaeologist in your country that would be more then happy to explain the difference between an artifact and a rock.
    Oh, by the way, there's no sign of any pecking, flaking or grinding on that rock.
    Yes, I chose the stone cos its from USA, not one of mine, and is claimed to be a figure stone, the other side has a some more convincing signs of modification. It also fits a recognized topology.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dart View Post
    I am sure these flakes and spalls are quite intentional. Flintknapping can be very predictable and repeatable. With good stone a decent tool kit and a reduction strategy very similar shapes and forms can be produced regularly. Something like a blade core is a good example of this.

    The flakes and spalls pictured would make good tools. Either as is or with further work/reduction. Most if not all look like single removals with no additional work being done. Not sure how that can be a figure or some kind of art. Good usable tools sure but art?
    What I meant was more along the lines of this: Look at the stuff below. The first is a kingfisher, the second is a bearded man and the third is...well you decide. The problem is they all came out of my chip pile and if you asked me to reproduce them, I couldn't.

    So the hang up remains, how do you sort out intentionally made stuff from debitage?

    For those who are 'seeing things'....-002-jpg

    For those who are 'seeing things'....-003-jpg

    For those who are 'seeing things'....-004-jpg

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RollingRock View Post
    Certainly not you, even a child could see the repeating topology.
    Yeah your "topology" is: garbage in = garbage out
    I don't care how much semi-intellectual blabbering you go on about, you''ll never convince us that a rock or debitage is anything other than what it is...rocks and debitage
    O.A.S.A.R. ( Ohio Artifact Search And Recovery)

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  12. #40
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    This is the same rock, I don't claim to have expertise to say the rock is 100% modified from a few photos, but sure looks like a pecked eye shape on it, making one wonder if perhaps other areas of the stone have been modified.

 

 

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