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Thread: Symbolic

  1. #11
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    I'd be interested in seeing examples of that "Beaver" motif. I just did another quick survey of Meso images and when a Heart is represented it looks like a Heart, not a Valentine, but graphic pictures of human hearts. Nothing ambiguous about the interpretation. That is an egg in the beak. In any culture any time frame eggs and hearts carry different meanings to us peoples.
    I occasionally find myself at odds with how images are interpreted in European early art. Repesentations of "Phoenix" will include the out stretched wings, as will the "Thunderbird" (NA). MM

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by meetmaker View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing examples of that "Beaver" motif. I just did another quick survey of Meso images and when a Heart is represented it looks like a Heart, not a Valentine, but graphic pictures of human hearts. Nothing ambiguous about the interpretation. That is an egg in the beak. In any culture any time frame eggs and hearts carry different meanings to us peoples.
    I occasionally find myself at odds with how images are interpreted in European early art. Repesentations of "Phoenix" will include the out stretched wings, as will the "Thunderbird" (NA). MM
    The Phoenix is associated w/the egg of myrrh w/no mention of sacrifice/fuel just a gift. This was per a NY Met. treatise/display. The heart as fuel for the Sun was based on a video doc of an elder speaking on commonly held beliefs of many tribes/bands

    Another research query unsolved. Several documents in state archives depict Anglo and Natives alike alluding to this land being given safe passage to all who travel here. No reason given, over three hundred documented encounters between AmerIndians and Europeans on contiguous properties along a two county corridor, none in Hill county. No explanation. Several coach/buggy lines including Butterfield took advantage of the anomaly. Any suggestions other than the catchall 'sacred ground' theory.

    The beaver/rodent morphs are numerous, the image incised in an 18lb conglomerate of mostly red jasper is my fav.
    I have a few excellent Zapotec and Meso pieces I'll get some pics together.
    Last edited by uzd; 02-17-2017 at 01:16 AM.

  4. #13
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    The Beav

    Symbolic-dscn1528-jpgSymbolic-dscn1527-jpg

    You should see the foot in relation to the head. Left facing always 3 toes. .
    Last edited by uzd; 02-21-2017 at 10:34 PM.

  5. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzd View Post
    Symbolic-dscn1528-jpgSymbolic-dscn1527-jpg

    You should see the foot in relation to the head. Left facing always 3 toes. .
    Symbolic-bigconglom-jpg

    Part of the conglomerate, originally part of an 18# mass when broken all pieces resembled animals held in high esteem by Natives. Just a coincidence.... these images don't look like any animals you've ever seen. If you think you are familiar w/ these figurals/zoomorphs/polymorphs t's your mind playing tricks, almost immediately someone will refer you to a word in the dictionary that explains you delusions.

    Symbolic-bigco-jpgSymbolic-all-jpg
    Last edited by uzd; 02-21-2017 at 11:10 PM.

  6. #15
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  7. #16
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    Thanks for the photo/reply. I've done some lookin' around at Northwestern Beaver motifs (not much out there) and what you have described could be interpreted as elements expressing "Beaver". To craft an image displaying the beavers distinctive teeth we humans (and dogs) would read that as a grimace. The "foot" would be a hind one, caught in the act of packing mud and dung into the damn.
    Good effort with the pics, very difficult to capture. It is that "Depth of Field" thing, a three dimensional object displayed in two. I see a visage with anthropomorphic features in a common "in mouth " motif. Again, the photo problem, I don't read it as beaver. It doesn't carry the visual dialogue of "Beaver", or even rodent for me. I see it as more strongly anthropomorphic than animistic. Nice find.
    Your second...pieces of rock. Pretty, but I can't fathom where you are going there. Are you trying to say that not all image bearing stones arn't artifacts, but some are?
    MM

  8. #17
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    Mimetoliths by R. V. Dietrich

    mimetolith (m0 m! tǷ l0th) n. 1.a. a natural topographic feature, rock outcrop, rock specimen, mineral specimen, or loose stone the shape of which resembles something else -- e.g., a real or fancied animal, plant, manufactured item, or part(s) thereof. b. a topographic feature, rock outcrop, rock specimen, mineral specimen, or loose stone, the surface pattern of which resembles a real or fancied animal, ... . c. a topographic feature (et alia) with any combination of shape and pattern that resembles a real or fancied animal, . . . . [Greek mimetes (an imitator) and lithos (stone); term coined by Thomas Orzo MacAdoo, first appeared in (Dietrich, 1989).] Discussion: Some people have applied this designation to forms exhibited by minerals and rocks that have been cut (e.g., sliced) or shaped (e.g., eggs and spheres) -- see, for examples, Figures 32, 61-78 and AppB1-AppB9. Although it has been suggested that this is an overextension of the designation, it seems quite justified because natural weathering and erosion could have exposed the features that would have led to their being referred to by this term.

    So far as their origin, diverse mimetoliths have been formed as the result of solidification of magma, crystallization from solutions, chemical weather, physical weathering, abrasion either in place or during transport, etc., etc. as well as the result of several different combinations of such constructive and destructive geological processes.

  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by meetmaker View Post
    Thanks for the photo/reply. I've done some lookin' around at Northwestern Beaver motifs (not much out there) and what you have described could be interpreted as elements expressing "Beaver". To craft an image displaying the beavers distinctive teeth we humans (and dogs) would read that as a grimace. The "foot" would be a hind one, caught in the act of packing mud and dung into the damn.
    Good effort with the pics, very difficult to capture. It is that "Depth of Field" thing, a three dimensional object displayed in two. I see a visage with anthropomorphic features in a common "in mouth " motif. Again, the photo problem, I don't read it as beaver. It doesn't carry the visual dialogue of "Beaver", or even rodent for me. I see it as more strongly anthropomorphic than animistic. Nice find.
    Your second...pieces of rock. Pretty, but I can't fathom where you are going there. Are you trying to say that not all image bearing stones arn't artifacts, but some are?
    MM
    Poor attempt at humor, why offer an opinion unless it's informed. Debate is fine, healthy but if there is nothing to validate rebuttal, why post. Not speaking in terms of this site or blogs in general. The ori,ginators of the 'chat' concept intended it to 'educate,enlighten or entertain and unfounded opinion was better kept to oneself. Several points are verified b4 I proclaim artifact, if you disagree lets here why and we'll both have a chance to learn something. It's a difficult sit. w/o hands on.

    What I wanted to offer for consideration by the red/conglomerate pics which the beaver was a part..... an 18# conglomerate w/polished exterior when broken by dropping on concrete resulted in pieces looking similar to animals....not just one or two...many. Now, that's factual but perception will vary, which is what we're about or should be, learning something about our cultural past. I have looked at many rocks in the last fifty years on more than one continent and had no imagination when I was 21 much less now so the tendency for me to succumb to imagery is less likely than most. It is a condition that exists I agree, generally in novices. Said all that to say this....
    we hinder our understanding of many earth sciences due to apathy. Why bring it up if the crux of the debate is not the issue. The guy wants to hear input on how does a large conglomerate seeming made of smaller material resembling fauna come about. Given the fact one corner of it has an undeniable incised rodent on it. A discussion w/no value to anyone is generally the result. Thanks fo your consideration.

  10. #19
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    So confused.............what is going on here?!?!
    "Even a rock will crumble if you strike it night and day, if hammer I must, I'm gonna get through your crust, gonna chip that stone away..."

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  12. #20
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    Thirty years ago I find a large colorful conglomerate along w/two large chert nodules together on land never improved. Rural, no stock on it. The conglomerate, orb shaped has a smooth exterior. A geologist friend yrs. ago talked me into breaking it up.... because you see some interesting stuff he claimed. Never animals but in this case clearly a large exterior portion resembles a beaver. If the picture doesn't do it for you. The photo is of the head area left facing profile and you should be able 2 c the clawed foot. I'll stop here.
    A postscript....a guy in Kansas does freehand drawings of chert artifacts using shading tech. to impart depth and detail lost in digital pics. Same techniques.. x-hatch, linear striation used by man on ice age rocks. 3d is born well 2d anyway.

    Another example. Colorful or fossil rocks receive weighting when archaeologists consider lithic artifacts.
    .
    Symbolic-sheep-jpg

 

 

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