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  1. #21
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    For another, the assumption that the 14C clock rolled steadily along has been buggered beyond all recognition by atmospheric disturbances such as the "Clovis Comet." Which, for one example, 14C dated the Gainey Paleoindian site to 873 AD (not a misprint). There were multiple samples, carefully handled, several labs used, etc.

    In light of which, Firestone and Topping wrote, on the basis of a lot of heavy, state-of-the-art nuclear physics and math
    ( TERRESTRIAL EVIDENCE OF A NUCLEAR CATASTROPHE IN PALEOINDIAN TIMES )

    We derive a thermal neutron flux of c. 10^17 n/cm 2 at Gainey, which corresponds to an approximate date of 39,000 yr B.P. No radiocarbon date is available for the more southerly Taylor site, but for the conventional range of accepted Paleoindian dates the neutron flux would be c. 10^16 n/cm 2 , giving a date of about 40,000 yr B.P. These calculations necessarily neglect differences in the neutron flux experienced by the dated charcoal and the artifacts, the effects of residual 239 Pu from previous bombardments, and loss of 239 Pu due to leaching from chert over time.
    Which, you'll notice, disposes of the much-belabored dates discrepancy pretty handily.
    Last edited by uniface; 09-12-2017 at 05:51 PM.

  2. #22
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    And as long as we're at it, as an antidote to the efforts of various advocates to present their opinions as based on all available evidence and definitive, this summation from a man who knows much more than I do :

    Quote Originally Posted by E. P. Grondine
    We know that in later times fishermen were blown off the coast of North West Africa and arrived in the Caribbean. We also know with some degree of certainty that later the B and D mt DNA groups moved from South America to North America. Hard data from South America is regularly ignored. We do not know the actual date of C mt DNA emigration into the Americas. We know little about mt DNA haplogroup extinctions in the Americas. We know little about the paloeclimate, and geologically we do not have a firm date for the reversal of the Teays River. As the data currently stands, making any broad statements is not warranted, in my opinion.
    FWIW

  3. #23
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    Yeah, I've wondered about the dating too. I've had a feeling for a while that maybe we're not as smart as we think we are on that. I absolutely agree there are all kinds of ways people could have gotten here pre-Clovis. I would be really surprised if it didn't happen quite a few times. In that sense, though, I picture it as kind of like the hundreds of lightning strikes or carelessly tossed cigarettes that burn a few acres but then go out. Then one day, for whatever reason, the conditions are just right and a massive forest fire breaks out and burns a huge area. That's what Clovis looks like to me, the "founding population" that (for whatever reason) took hold and rapidly expanded as would be expected with any viable animal population moving into a resource rich area.

    For me it doesn't matter where the people came from, when they came or where in the Americas they arrived. Once that "fire" took off, the body of evidence is going to be too big to miss. If you roll back the start date by only 1,000 years, start with only 20 people (very iffy as a viable reproductive population), and only grow them at 1% (very low for such a resource rich environment with no human competition), you still end up at something like 400,000 people. At least regionally, that should be easy to see.

    I feel like all this pre-Clovis stuff is kind of like finding apples lying around in the desert. It means something. Certainly apples only come from apple trees. But rewriting history and calling the desert an apple orchard goes too far.

    I do hope the "apples" keep getting picked up, though, because one of these days I am convinced they will add up to something, or maybe just make a nice pie!

    Keith

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  7. #25
    PhD in Arrowheadology
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    Finally some discussion. Don't have time to read it all. I've got a degree in biochemistry. We are taking DNA shows this or DNA shows that... I think the key point to remember... how many paleo and pre-Clovis sights do we have where DNA can be extracted and used? Paleo human remains are super rare. Comparing what little DNA we have recovered and using it to make insights into what happened i the past is like looking through a key hole and seeing everything in a 100 story building. We are dealing with a minute sample base and trying to draw conclusions.
    I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was.

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  9. #26
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  10. #27
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    First it wanted cookies for access. Then the index covered 80% of the screen, & it continually froze up. Finally it demanded joining & log-in.

    Maybe not old computer-friendly ?

    Oh well. Off to crunch the cookie . . .

 

 

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